Village Specialization > Rigid Nukes

[DeletedUser2635]

I think they are useless and the defence on them is awful.

Just making sure, you know axes are offensive units, right?

 

[Citrus]

It is all personal opinion on what you have. I never have axes, I think they are useless and the defence on them is awful. on the other hand some people love them and have thousands, It is more about testing what you prefer.

You're going to need an axe (+zerk) nuke though against an all-archer defense, which you will sometimes see.

 

[DeletedUser3159]

Just making sure, you know axes are offensive units, right?

Yeah obviously I know that, but I still find there are better offensive troops with more defence.

 

[DeletedUser3159]

You're going to need an axe (+zerk) nuke though against an all-archer defense, which you will sometimes see.

Fair enough that is true, never really come across that myself though.

 

[DeletedUser2193]

I have no clue about pally weapon in the surviving rounds, we need some more tests, I refuse to believe just a sentence "You are all wrong" with no actual proof.

According to the battle tutorial, infantry fights first mo matter how the Provisions are distributed, Provision distribution account only for how big a percentage of the def army each attacking group will face, at least according to the video.

The info in the video is false. The "survivors" of the previous group are not added to the next group. They fight only if the next group fails.
SImple example with no archers.
1) Infantry fight their share of def... and some of them survive.
2) Cavalry (No surviving infantry from previous round) fight their share of def.. All of them get killed..
2.2) Surviving axes fight the surviving def (the def that beat the LC)

So the question here is if the pally is in the LC group and dies and had the axe weapon if the 2.2 round would be affected by the weapon or not. But in not sure if we can really test it as its hard to turn of the weapon for specific rounds.

 

[DeletedUser1323]

Kei, he could be right on some special cases.
I mean if you send 1000 lc + 3999 axes + pally with the axe weapon against 10k spears. Pally will fight with the largest provision group, the cavalry.
On the first round all LC will die and the pally with it. Axes will be boosted with the pally weapon on the first round and kill their share of spears. But question is, and this is what I think jehzir is implying, for the second round, when the surviving axes have to face the surviving spears will they be boosted with the pally weapon as well or not...
I always assumed they would, what jehzir is saying is that they will not...

Yato, can you test the numbers I gave above on the test server and paste here the report with the results. I think I can get a conclusive answer if I have that report.

Now, you are getting it... Zerks are their own unit type. They do fight in the infantry group but they have their own calculation that is separate from that group, which does not affect rams.

Also Kei, the test world does not equal the live worlds, thus that is an apple verse orange argument.

 

[DeletedUser3016]

It is all personal opinion on what you have. I never have axes, I think they are useless and the defence on them is awful. on the other hand some people love them and have thousands, It is more about testing what you prefer.

Balance my friend. I have seen people who only defend with spears and archers only, and the combo of LC and MA would cost too much to take it down. It's all about having a decent balance of different nukes for different occasions. It also means your opponent doesn't know what they are to be hit with, which is always good

 

[DeletedUser1323]

Wall damage is simple, by round it is 50% of the total capable ram damage, subtracted from the wall point total. If 200 rams strike a level 20 wall that has 1420 points, that do 2 points each, that wall will take 100 damage in the first round, then if any survive the remaining damage the wall from the amount of 1320 points, which is not enough to drop a wall level. 1133 or 1135 points is wall 19, the wall formula is odd but it works on a base of 20 hp at level 1 then is multiplied by 1.2515 per level.

 

[DeletedUser2754]

Wall damage is simple, by round it is 50% of the total capable ram damage, subtracted from the wall point total. If 200 rams strike a level 20 wall that has 1420 points, that do 2 points each, that wall will take 100 damage in the first round, then if any survive the remaining damage the wall from the amount of 1320 points, which is not enough to drop a wall level. 1133 or 1135 points is wall 19, the wall formula is odd but it works on a base of 20 hp at level 1 then is multiplied by 1.2515 per level.

This info is not correct. And I just checked a report where 254 rams lowered on the bonus wall round 5 levels. According to your proposed calcs that would never go beyond level 18.

You hit down buildings whatever they are by their hitpoints. It has nothing to do with the basedefense that the wall gives to the village.
A wall 20 has 18 hitpoints. Because of the defense bonus they give +100% bonus. So that means a wall 20 has 36 hitpoints.

Each ram has 1 offensive hitpoint. To lower one wall level you need to hit the wall with more than 50% of its hitpoints value. So for a wall 20...
Rams * Attack modifier > 50% * 36
To lower 2 levels you need to hit with more than 150%. 3 levels > 250%
So, if the attack modifier is 100%, to lower one level you need 19 rams, 2 levels = 55 rams and so on.

This works perfectly for the wall bonus when the offense has the upper hand. I still haven't figured out how the calculation is done to figure out how many rams are accounted when the defense has the upper hand.

 

[DeletedUser1323]

This info is not correct. And I just checked a report where 254 rams lowered on the bonus wall round 5 levels. According to your proposed calcs that would never go beyond level 18.

You hit down buildings whatever they are by their hitpoints. It has nothing to do with the basedefense that the wall gives to the village.
A wall 20 has 18 hitpoints. Because of the defense bonus they give +100% bonus. So that means a wall 20 has 36 hitpoints.

Each ram has 1 offensive hitpoint. To lower one wall level you need to hit the wall with more than 50% of its hitpoints value. So for a wall 20...
Rams * Attack modifier > 50% * 36
To lower 2 levels you need to hit with more than 150%. 3 levels > 250%
So, if the attack modifier is 100%, to lower one level you need 19 rams, 2 levels = 55 rams and so on.

This works perfectly for the wall bonus when the offense has the upper hand. I still haven't figured out how the calculation is done to figure out how many rams are accounted when the defense has the upper hand.

Where did you get a wall has 18 hitpoints? out of the blue? that value matches nothing in the code and what is on the user screens. The base defence is the hitpoint value. Maybe we need Inno to intercede on this one.

You are providing incomplete information. 1) did all the rams survive? 2) if so then the final round would engage and allow the total rams strike the final strike. The one component you did not put in is the luck, which increases or decreases this damage by the amount of luck. So if the report shows +11% the rounds will be multiplied by that round amount.
To prove wall hitpoints I have added two images one from a recent take and one that has an original wall 20. You will see the two numbers in the wall 12 image and that the wall 13 will have the next wall hp value. take the 295/236 and you get the multiplier, very easy math.
Basic defense is the wall itself the multiplier for defense bonus to the units is the percentage, two completely separate calculations.

 

[DeletedUser2754]

Here: https://en.wiki.tribalwars2.com/index.php?title=Wall

 

[DeletedUser2754]

I can't find that other report. But any other really do.

Offense:
2000 lc + 1400 ma + 328 rams + 700 zerks (faith 100%; morale 100%; luck 15%; weapon mastery 10%; officer 100% = 125% attack modifier)
Defense:
1507 sp + 3443 ar + 36 lc + 737 hc + 19 trebs (faith 110%; wall bonus 45% = 160% (159.5%) defense modifier and initial wall = 20)

The trebs kill 19 rams in the pre-round so only 309 should be accounted.
Offense combat strength is bigger than defense so rams make full damage in the wall bonus calculation.

rams * attack modifier = 309 * 125% = 386.25
386.25 / 36 = 10.729 which is then rounded to 11

For some odd reason faith is not considered in the wall reduction defense bonus. Not just in this case where it should give an extra defense, also when faith is at 50%. For the wall reduction, faith is always at 100% at least in the wall bonus calculation.

If you find any report where offense combat strength is bigger than defense combat strength and this wall reduction calculation does not apply, please forward the report to me. The ones I tested always worked perfect this way.

 

[DeletedUser2754]

Found the other one:
Offense:
2000 lc + 1347 ma + 254 rams + 560 zerks (faith 100%; morale 57%; luck 7%; weapon mastery 10%; officer 100% = 70.99% (71%) attack modifier)
Defense:
575 ma (faith 50%; wall bonus 75% = 87.5% (88%) defense modifier and an initial wall of 20)

254 rams * 71% =180.34
180.34 / 36 = 5.009 which is then rounded to 5

As I said in the previous post defense faith is not taken into consideration in the wall bonus calculation...

 

[DeletedUser1594]

Yeah obviously I know that, but I still find there are better offensive troops with more defence.

are you actually stating that you keep your lc/ma in the village to defend? I mean you are doing a disservice by stating something like that, some noob might actually read it and think it's a good idea because a game moderator stated it

 

[DeletedUser2635]

some noob might actually read it and think it's a good idea because a game moderator stated it

Yeah like me.

 

[DeletedUser1323]

I can't find that other report. But any other really do.

Offense:
2000 lc + 1400 ma + 328 rams + 700 zerks (faith 100%; morale 100%; luck 15%; weapon mastery 10%; officer 100% = 125% attack modifier)
Defense:
1507 sp + 3443 ar + 36 lc + 737 hc + 19 trebs (faith 110%; wall bonus 45% = 160% (159.5%) defense modifier and initial wall = 20)

The trebs kill 19 rams in the pre-round so only 309 should be accounted.
Offense combat strength is bigger than defense so rams make full damage in the wall bonus calculation.

rams * attack modifier = 309 * 125% = 386.25
386.25 / 36 = 10.729 which is then rounded to 11

For some odd reason faith is not considered in the wall reduction defense bonus. Not just in this case where it should give an extra defense, also when faith is at 50%. For the wall reduction, faith is always at 100% at least in the wall bonus calculation.

If you find any report where offense combat strength is bigger than defense combat strength and this wall reduction calculation does not apply, please forward the report to me. The ones I tested always worked perfect this way.

If this is indeed true, than the code itself is wrong. The method you are using must have been introduced in the balancing update #2 , which is locked away in a separate script file. The formula contradicts the screen information for the units and walls. Personally, I do not trust the wiki as it has a lot of mistakes and lacks the details on how to actually read those charts (example: the additive value of the used provisions when you add a level to a building).

Again, the screen information shows the unit attack strength of 2, not 1 as you state. You maybe coming up with a 'correct' formula but I do not see what units survive, without a report. In my own custom designed sim based on that update I have you losing 571 LC 875 MA 328 RAMS 155 Zerks and taking that wall from 20 to 0 with complete wipe of the defending villa. So something is screwy here. To be honest I think we stumbled on some bad information screens in game, especially with regards to the faith component, attack strength and wall defense (hp value).

 

[DeletedUser2754]

Just like cats, rams have the special ability to destroy buildings. Cats destroy any building of chhoosing. Rams only destroy the wall.

Regarding building destruction each of these two units have 1 offense hitpoint.
Regarding attacking other units rams have a combat strength of 2. Cats have a combat strength of 100.

If we followed your line of thought then we should all be using cats to hit down walls, since they have 100 of CS. And in reality you need as many cats to hit down the wall as you need rams.

The base defense has nothing to do with wall's strength. The base defense is the numerical strength power that is added up to all groups present in the battle. For instance if someone attacked you with 50% provision worth cavalry, 25% infantry and 25% archer. Your defense will be decomposed in the same proportion to the offensive army (as you know) and the base defense value given by the wall will be added fully to each of those groups. So that 50% of your defense + 1420 (wall 20) will fight against the cavalry they sent you. 25%+1420 for infantry and 25%+1420 for archers.

And this goes beyond the balancing update. It was like this before. It is like this now.
I don't know if there is some formula that actually relates the base defense with the hitpoints value of the buildings which could mean we are both right. I know that the base defense value can be calculated by the following formula IF(WALLLEVEL=0,0,ROUND((1.2515^(WALLLEVEL-1))*20)). Not sure if and how that can then be translated to the hitpoints of the wall...

 

[DeletedUser2754]

If this is indeed true, than the code itself is wrong. The method you are using must have been introduced in the balancing update #2 , which is locked away in a separate script file.

If you had access to a script with the code before, can you send it to me in a PM, I would like to take a look at it even if it is old.

Personally, I do not trust the wiki as it has a lot of mistakes and lacks the details on how to actually read those charts (example: the additive value of the used provisions when you add a level to a building).

I do not trust the wiki either, but some things are still right there, and as far as I know that method seems to work. But please do test it. If I'm wrong in my method, I'd like to know. And test yours again with a few more reports and see if you get the same results. As I said we could be both right.

The provisions in the wiki were corrected, I think. But they still have the MA with 150 as attack strength in the overall unit table and 140 in the detailed unit page, lol.

 

[DeletedUser1323]

Just like cats, rams have the special ability to destroy buildings. Cats destroy any building of chhoosing. Rams only destroy the wall.

Regarding building destruction each of these two units have 1 offense hitpoint.
Regarding attacking other units rams have a combat strength of 2. Cats have a combat strength of 100.

If we followed your line of thought then we should all be using cats to hit down walls, since they have 100 of CS. And in reality you need as many cats to hit down the wall as you need rams.

The base defense has nothing to do with wall's strength. The base defense is the numerical strength power that is added up to all groups present in the battle. For instance if someone attacked you with 50% provision worth cavalry, 25% infantry and 25% archer. Your defense will be decomposed in the same proportion to the offensive army (as you know) and the base defense value given by the wall will be added fully to each of those groups. So that 50% of your defense + 1420 (wall 20) will fight against the cavalry they sent you. 25%+1420 for infantry and 25%+1420 for archers.

And this goes beyond the balancing update. It was like this before. It is like this now.
I don't know if there is some formula that actually relates the base defense with the hitpoints value of the buildings which could mean we are both right. I know that the base defense value can be calculated by the following formula IF(WALLLEVEL=0,0,ROUND((1.2515^(WALLLEVEL-1))*20)). Not sure if and how that can then be translated to the hitpoints of the wall...

All you have to do with this is IF(WALLLEVEL=0,0,ROUND((1.2515^(WALLLEVEL-1))*20))/2 for the attack strength to generate the value based on base defense. We are approaching the same answer with using different variables. So we are both right, just using two different methods. That makes me feel better. Inno put in extra garbage calculations that I am afraid they have no clue as to what does what anymore. Right, I am not disputing the attack any other unit.
Cats were not a part of this conversation and should not have been brought in. The way to determine cat strength was to combat strength/combat strength = 1.0 which is the modifier we both know as attack strength => hit points.

 

[DeletedUser2754]

But that formula is a correlation between the wall level and the base defense. It has nothing to do with the hitpoints. There might be a correlation there but I don't know which... If you can take that formula and get the hitpoints of the wall that you see in the wiki, I will believe what you are saying.

Also can you explain me the math of your calculation for the two reports I quoted up there...