Survival of the Noble

[DeletedUser687]

As far as my knowledge goes the global rules for a noble to survive a battle (derived from TW1) are as simple as:
1. Noble dies if more than 50% of the units die.

Somehow I have found this to be false and am wondering what the exact rule regarding noble survival or death is.
Take a look at the following, about 90% of all troops die, yet the noble survives:

The only kind of explanation I could come up with is the following:
"Noble dies if more than 50% of the units in the "noble" group (which is infantry) die, without taking the noble into account".
Given that the noble would be considered part of the infantry group, and in the report you can see there are no offensive infantry units, this results in 0 units participating, but also 0% of the units dying, but at the same time also 100% dies as there 0 deaths of 0 units is 0%, but also 100% (weird right?!).

What I would actually expect is the Noble to be fighting along with "the largest group" just as a Rams and Knights would do. If that would be the case, then the simple rule of "50%+ dies, noble dies" would apply and the noble should have died.

If anyone has a far better explanation of how this mechanic works, I'd love to hear it.

 

[DeletedUser486]

I asked about this a while ago when it first came up (and I was still moderating) and from what I understand it's more or less the same in which the noble will probably die if 50% of the troops die. However, now the noble has a minute chance of surviving and lowering loyalty.

At my current standing of almost 400 villages, I have only ever seen it happen once, so I couldn't say the exact probability of it.

 

[DeletedUser687]

I asked about this a while ago when it first came up (and I was still moderating) and from what I understand it's more or less the same in which the noble will probably die if 50% of the troops die. However, now the noble has a minute chance of surviving and lowering loyalty.

At my current standing of almost 400 villages, I have only ever seen it happen once, so I couldn't say the exact probability of it.

It is strange that the noble would have a probability to survive given that almost everything else isn't based off probability. The only other probability part is the Luck modifier, which is clearly explained to range from -15% to +15%.
If the noble has a survival probability it should be explained. Even if it doesn't, I feel like in general the mechanic of noble survivel/death should be properly explained.

 

[DeletedUser2504]

So should the ram calculations, and yet here we are.

 

[DeletedUser2084]

Isn't it possible to get a game moderator or someone to replicate this scenario on the Admin Worlds and see if the results are the same or differ?

 

[DeletedUser2635]

It is not possible to get a moderator to do this kind of thing because they are either not qualified or they can't afford to invest enough time in it.
So let me try to answer the questions that have been asked here. First of all, @WhiteFang5 Nobleman does not belong to the infantry group, and even if he did, it wouldn't really be fair if it worked the way you suggested it (sending a nobleman alone without any escort would mean that 0% of the infantry group died and you would be able to noble people with 4-5 Noblemen alone).
-Infantry: axes, spears, swords and archers
-Cavalry: LC, MA, HC, Paladin
-Artillery: rams, cats
-Special Units: Nobleman, Berserker, Trebuchet
As you have mentioned the 50% "rule", yes it is true that is widely considered to be a rule and how it really works, but I would only name it a bad interpretation, and the right way to put it would be: "If more than 50% of the escort survives, the noble is very likely to survive, however once the casualties pass 50%, the possibility of the noble dying starts to increase rapidly (I don't have a big enough sample size to verify this but it could be like this: 0-50% died - 0 to 25% chance of the noble dying, 50-70% escort dies - the chance of dying rises greatly to 50-90%, 70+% escort dies - chance of noble surviving is super low).
And about the rams: One of the moderators told me that rams need 1300 population in infantry as escort to be effective in battle - which is of course total BS. But based on my experience: when sent with a lot of infantry: very effective; when sent only with cavs (LC or MA, or if you feel like attacking with HC): not as effective as with infantry escort, but they will still do a good job; solo rams: they will still do some damage (they will only damage the wall, and a large number of rams would need to be sent to make a dent in a stacked villa wall).
Anyway for you who would like to know how the rams work, I think you should stop asking here on the forum, as it has already been asked countless times, and actually start contributing - you play the game after all, you get the reports, post the on the forum, maybe someone will crack the formulas, or try to do it yourself. The world is a complicated place these days, if you don't help yourself, help from others may never come, especially if you rely on it

 

[DeletedUser2635]

Maybe some of you will say: "Oh I watched a official TW2 video, and they said MA belongs to the archer group.", well sorry to disappoint you, but that video is full *removed*, and here is a few reasons why:
- they say the Paladin fights with the largest group (even tho they said infantry group fights first, in the same video, so they basically contradicted themselves within 3 minutes), which is not true, as we did a testing (@Yatogami did it at my suggestion), and it turned out it doesn't which group's the largest one, as the weapons worked all the time, it was only important to have the weapon equiped and you would get the bonus.
- Discipline increases if you attack with units from different unit groups, and if you run some tests with it, you will figure out that the groups actually look like I posted above. If someone knows something I do not, I will gladly read the facts - theories.

 

[DeletedUser2122]

Isn't it possible to get a game moderator or someone to replicate this scenario on the Admin Worlds and see if the results are the same or differ?

It wouldn't exactly work the same. In the above report the nobleman had the lesser probability of survival on his side ssorecreating this scenario would only give us a report with a dead noble,possibly. I'll see if I can recreate it,but it's highly unlikely

 

[DeletedUser2084]

It wouldn't exactly work the same. In the above report the nobleman had the lesser probability of survival on his side ssorecreating this scenario would only give us a report with a dead noble,possibly. I'll see if I can recreate it,but it's highly unlikely

Yeah but since you have access to admin/test worlds, can't you just spawn 100's of villages with nukes and constantly just send them at each other with nobles? I do realise they follow normal world speeds and stuff but yeah.

e; if we could generate a large enough sample size of this scenario, we could develop a proper understanding of why situations like this occur.

 

[DeletedUser2122]

I don't think I can give myself villages(although I'm not sure about that) but yeah I could do it multiple times and see what happens. Would take a while since I'm not exactly able to get on a PC these days.

 

[DeletedUser2084]

I don't think I can give myself villages(although I'm not sure about that) but yeah I could do it multiple times and see what happens. Would take a while since I'm not exactly able to get on a PC these days.

Ah yeah no problems. I'm sure if it was done 1,000 or even 10,000 times it'd be almost a valid enough sample size to say what the chances of the nobling surviving are etc. This could also be used to work out the ram calculation as well but I don't know if Inno would like it if you used their admin worlds to test out theories for players.

 

[DeletedUser2635]

TBH I don't think it would change a lot even if you knew exactly how most of those features work.

Here I will give you a good example: Let's say we got a fight between a world class player and a total newbie - and here I will name a few factors that will most likely decide the winner - dedication, a bit of luck (catch the enemy of guard or while sleeping - while this is not entirely based on luck, the most part of it still is), and of course - the person with more troops will have a massive advantage, support from the tribe, Morale... while factors like: general knowledge of the game, excellent knowledge regarding game features, etc. rarely impact the outcome of the war.

 

[DeletedUser486]

Ah yeah no problems. I'm sure if it was done 1,000 or even 10,000 times it'd be almost a valid enough sample size to say what the chances of the nobling surviving are etc. This could also be used to work out the ram calculation as well but I don't know if Inno would like it if you used their admin worlds to test out theories for players.

It isn't a simulator, there is no script to input for 1000 calculations to retrieve results for, they would still have to do the same actions as in game to achieve your suggested sample size. You literally just asked a moderator to create the exact same situation 10,000 times and then report back the results. That is simply inconceivable and unfeasible.

 

[DeletedUser2084]

It isn't a simulator, there is no script to input for 1000 calculations to retrieve results for, they would still have to do the same actions as in game to achieve your suggested sample size. You literally just asked a moderator to create the exact same situation 10,000 times and then report back the results. That is simply inconceivable and unfeasible.

?? Okay. You act like I knew what the admin worlds are and I already knew how they worked. I was simply asking a question, not sure why you've got to sound so condescending. I mean, as far as I know admin/test worlds in many other games usually have admin commands to spawn units etc to test out bugs/new features so on and so forth so I thought it'd be replicated here. Guess not, cool. Thanks for your explanation.

TBH I don't think it would change a lot even if you knew exactly how most of those features work.

Here I will give you a good example: Let's say we got a fight between a world class player and a total newbie - and here I will name a few factors that will most likely decide the winner - dedication, a bit of luck (catch the enemy of guard or while sleeping - while this is not entirely based on luck, the most part of it still is), and of course - the person with more troops will have a massive advantage, support from the tribe, Morale... while factors like: general knowledge of the game, excellent knowledge regarding game features, etc. rarely impact the outcome of the war.

Sure, I agree. But what are you trying to address from my post? I am simply trying to gain more knowledge in this game by seeing if this truly is a possibility factor or not and see what happened. Right now we're all working with theories since nothing has been tested/confirmed by InnoGames.

 

[DeletedUser486]

?? Okay. You act like I knew what the admin worlds are and I already knew how they worked. I was simply asking a question, not sure why you've got to sound so condescending. I mean, as far as I know admin/test worlds in many other games usually have admin commands to spawn units etc to test out bugs/new features so on and so forth so I thought it'd be replicated here. Guess not, cool. Thanks for your explanation.

Limited tools to speed up the preparation, but not to replicate high quantity commands.

Sure, I agree. But what are you trying to address from my post? I am simply trying to gain more knowledge in this game by seeing if this truly is a possibility factor or not and see what happened. Right now we're all working with theories since nothing has been tested/confirmed by InnoGames.

Exact equation or not, we are still all on the same page so I do not quite understand the issue, nor have I ever understood the need to turn this game into an equation to be optimised.

 

[DeletedUser2084]

Limited tools to speed up the preparation, but not to replicate high quantity commands.

Alright. I assumed you guys had instant creation commands but I guess not. That's literally all you had to say in your previous post.

Exact equation or not, we are still all on the same page so I do not quite understand the issue, nor have I ever understood the need to turn this game into an equation to be optimised.

...umm, it's almost like you're just trying to start an argument for the sake of it. I simply wanted to find out how it works as I'm sure many other people do as well. It's almost as if you're insinuating that having knowledge is a bad thing.
The bolded part is simply your opinion. Some people want to/don't mind optimizing the game to become better players because any edge in this game is clearly a good thing that only benefits the player with it.

Please don't reply again, I don't want to turn this thread into an argument thread where all your lackeys come to defend you.

 

[DeletedUser2754]

So let me try to answer the questions that have been asked here. First of all, @WhiteFang5 Nobleman does not belong to the infantry group, and even if he did, it wouldn't really be fair if it worked the way you suggested it (sending a nobleman alone without any escort would mean that 0% of the infantry group died and you would be able to noble people with 4-5 Noblemen alone).
-Infantry: axes, spears, swords and archers
-Cavalry: LC, MA, HC, Paladin
-Artillery: rams, cats
-Special Units: Nobleman, Berserker, Trebuchet

Maybe some of you will say: "Oh I watched a official TW2 video, and they said MA belongs to the archer group.", well sorry to disappoint you, but that video is full *removed*, and here is a few reasons why:
- they say the Paladin fights with the largest group (even tho they said infantry group fights first, in the same video, so they basically contradicted themselves within 3 minutes), which is not true, as we did a testing (@Yatogami did it at my suggestion), and it turned out it doesn't which group's the largest one, as the weapons worked all the time, it was only important to have the weapon equiped and you would get the bonus.
- Discipline increases if you attack with units from different unit groups, and if you run some tests with it, you will figure out that the groups actually look like I posted above. If someone knows something I do not, I will gladly read the facts - theories.

I think you are mixing two things. One is the type of walking of a unit and another the unit attack type. Mounted archers might be cavalry for discipline issues but regarding firepower they are archer. I'm 100% sure of it. Otherwise they wouldn't be so effective against spears.
Regarding the paladin, he might fight with the largest group (the 150 of attack firepower he has) although the item he carries is valid for any troops despite where he fights.
I also think that nobleman as well as berserker despite being special units, fight in the general minibattle. But rams also have a minimal firepower they add to the general minibattle. So if in that report 90% of the rams were killed and not because of trebuchets the noble was just lucky to get through. I have sent a train where a noble died and a noble survived with the same exact number of troops and against the same defense and the same morale and luck was actually worse for the one where he survived. So there is random effect in the nobleman chance of survival for sure. But I do agree with Kei that it probably works as he described.

May I request to the mods to test an attack of 100axes+1nobleman against a wall 20 deserted village and the same thing but with 100lc+1nobleman. I don't need 100 tests but if I could request to test it 5 times just to get rid of the nobleman randomness chance of survival, I would appreciate. I have a feeling that if you send an escort of 100 axes the nobleman will likely survive and if with 100lc it will likely be killed.

 

[DeletedUser486]

I
May I request to the mods to test an attack of 100axes+1nobleman against a wall 20 deserted village and the same thing but with 100lc+1nobleman. I don't need 100 tests but if I could request to test it 5 times just to get rid of the nobleman randomness chance of survival, I would appreciate. I have a feeling that if you send an escort of 100 axes the nobleman will likely survive and if with 100lc it will likely be killed.

I have been nobling villages in my account on Bastille using cavalry with no problems.

 

[DeletedUser2122]

I've sent nobles with no faith against level 20 walls with only 40 LC/HC as escorts and they survive without any problem.

 

[DeletedUser2635]

I think you are mixing two things. One is the type of walking of a unit and another the unit attack type. Mounted archers might be cavalry for discipline issues but regarding firepower they are archer. I'm 100% sure of it. Otherwise they wouldn't be so effective against spears.
Regarding the paladin, he might fight with the largest group (the 150 of attack firepower he has) although the item he carries is valid for any troops despite where he fights.
I also think that nobleman as well as berserker despite being special units, fight in the general minibattle. But rams also have a minimal firepower they add to the general minibattle. So if in that report 90% of the rams were killed and not because of trebuchets the noble was just lucky to get through. I have sent a train where a noble died and a noble survived with the same exact number of troops and against the same defense and the same morale and luck was actually worse for the one where he survived. So there is random effect in the nobleman chance of survival for sure. But I do agree with Kei that it probably works as he described.

May I request to the mods to test an attack of 100axes+1nobleman against a wall 20 deserted village and the same thing but with 100lc+1nobleman. I don't need 100 tests but if I could request to test it 5 times just to get rid of the nobleman randomness chance of survival, I would appreciate. I have a feeling that if you send an escort of 100 axes the nobleman will likely survive and if with 100lc it will likely be killed.

What you said is true, but I wasn't talking about battle system, of course I know that archer defense is the stat that is effective against MA.