Countering Trebuchets?

[DeletedUser]

I recently had a rough experience throwing 12 nukes with rams and beserkers at a stacked village, the trebuchets killed all my rams so I did not even drop the wall down one level and I barely killed 10,000 troops, with religion, now is there a way to counter them?? or are they the god unit that makes offense so useless it's not even worth playing the game?

We've got absolutely no calculations on how the rams work either.. I mean.. do I just not build rams and take the heavy losses, using the extra pop from rams for more beserkers or what do I do?

 

[DeletedUser486]

I would say against a stack with trebs, that the most effective and also most costly solution would be to use berserkers for their bonus damage. Of course, if I was against a stack that 12 nukes couldn't move, I would be looking for the gap that is feeding that support. Can't stop 12 nukes like that everywhere..

 

[DeletedUser]

Yeah you're right, 12 nukes barely took out 10K mate.. I couldn't drop the wall.. trebs are too OP.. you're powerless against them.

 

[Citrus]

We've got absolutely no calculations on how the rams work either.. I mean.. do I just not build rams and take the heavy losses, using the extra pop from rams for more beserkers or what do I do?

This is true but I have done some and I'm planning to conduct more tests. I can already tell you roughly that;
- 710 rams are needed to drop the wall bonus from 20 to 0. In a single battle, wall bonus never drops more than the wall level itself. Luck has an effect. Wall bonus comes down in a linear pattern meaning that 355 rams would bring wall bonus from 20 to 10 (typically bringing defender's modifier from 200% to 150%).
- 230 rams are needed to drop the wall level from 20 to 0. Luck and defending units have an effect. The pattern is exponential so that higher levels are harder to lower. 115 rams would drop the wall level roughly from 20 to 13.

The rams need an escort of roughly 1300 provisions in order to hit at full power. This means that 1300 provisions worth of escorting troops need to live through the battle. Defense troops are not good for escort because their attack power is so low that many will die already at the wall's base defense without any defending troops at the target.

Testing this is complicated but if I can come up with any more definitive information, will post it later.

As for the original question on countering trebuchet - it can only be done effectively with a number of full nukes without rams in them provided that there are about 1000+ trebuchet in the stack. The bigger the stack the harder it will be to go through obviously - although a big stack means that many other villages will be unprotected at that moment.

 

[DeletedUser]

How many rams to get a wall level 5 down to 0?

 

[Citrus]

How many rams to get a wall level 5 down to 0?

The nominal quantity with sufficient escort provided that modifiers are equal would be 25 rams.

 

[DeletedUser2670]

Against players with high numbers of Treb's, there are three ways to go :
1 : Make shure you build more RAM than they player have trebs. If the player have 300 treb, you should have at least 400 ram. The downside with many rams is that you will have less space for other troops. And the less strenght you have on your troop, the less effect you get from ram.
2 : Accept that you have to take the village without taking down the wall. Forgett about building ram and use the extra space from that to build an even stronger nuke.
3 : Wear him down with huge numbers of nukes on him. The first attack might not take down the wall, but might take out some of the trebs.

 

[Citrus]

Against players with high numbers of Treb's, there are three ways to go :
1 : Make shure you build more RAM than they player have trebs. If the player have 300 treb, you should have at least 400 ram. The downside with many rams is that you will have less space for other troops. And the less strenght you have on your troop, the less effect you get from ram.
2 : Accept that you have to take the village without taking down the wall. Forgett about building ram and use the extra space from that to build an even stronger nuke.
3 : Wear him down with huge numbers of nukes on him. The first attack might not take down the wall, but might take out some of the trebs.

I would agree with your suggestions 2 and 3 but for 1 I would have to disagree. If you bring 400 rams against 300 trebuchet, it would be the same as attacking a village without trebuchet with 100 rams. That's not efficient. If you're lucky, you will get the wall bonus down 3 levels leaving you to attack the defensive units with 185% bonus. Against 300 trebuchet, if you're going to use rams, you should bring at least 1000 rams. If you're lucky, you will cancel the whole wall bonus (nominal quantity needed being 710 and here you would have 700), and when defensive units lose their bonus, even though you have less attacking units because of the rams, they will do more devastating damage.

 

[DeletedUser2670]

Yes, you are right Citrus. 400 Ram was underestimated.
It should also be considered that a player who had time building 300 Trebuchet probably have more than just one village. Such a player is often experinced enough to get support towards this village, and have it stacked leaving other villages empty. So in such a case another solution could be to just avoid that village and look for other not so obvious villages. With som fakes timed properly with the attack it can be of great success.

 

[DeletedUser1594]

I know this is an old thread, but I tried an attack the other day, just trying to figure out what people think. There is some discussion amongst a couple of my tribe mates with differing opinions. I normally make my bb nukes with 1k rams, so I decided to try with 2k rams

Before

Attack

After

Now obviously I realize I did not do much damage troop-wise which was expected and understood. One of my m8's thinks that ram attacks are kind of concave where there is a sweet spot and once you go above it, it actually negatively affects you because of the lack of attacking power. Curious as to what other peoples views and positions on this would be

 

[DeletedUser894]

I know this is an old thread, but I tried an attack the other day, just trying to figure out what people think. There is some discussion amongst a couple of my tribe mates with differing opinions. I normally make my bb nukes with 1k rams, so I decided to try with 2k rams

Before

Attack

After

Now obviously I realize I did not do much damage troop-wise which was expected and understood. One of my m8's thinks that ram attacks are kind of concave where there is a sweet spot and once you go above it, it actually negatively affects you because of the lack of attacking power. Curious as to what other peoples views and positions on this would be

Don't tell me you was the attacker...?

 

[DeletedUser1006]

trebs are slower then nobles, use that...if ur attacking a villa with 12 nukes worth of treb coverage/def troops then u should prolly find a different area to attack...just send a yolo attack into their heart at a barb and chapel flash em so u can be sabbed...or take chances with a church stack...or coins (meh)...

a villas that blocks 12 nukes and takes no wall dmg prolly shoulda been scouted before hand and avoided haha. Sometimes killing troops off with ur nukes like that is good but with a full 20 wall and trebs, u should find another area/villa to target. IMO

 

[DeletedUser1594]

You guys are missing what I was getting at. I'm trying to figure out peoples stances on ram counts. Plus as the game progresses and you are able to spend the offense on giant stacks I want to figure out the best way to get the wall down on a stack like that and then run nukes at it until it disappears.

 

[DeletedUser486]

I would say anything beyond 1000-1200 rams in a wall breaker is certainly wasting your offensive potential. I would even put the bountiful harvest towards increasing the fighting strength of a single nuke. I MAY consider a test of 2000 rams in a super nuke with the Paladin weapon, but I would expect to see better results with 1000 rams with weapon and the rest into fighting ability.

There is indeed a threshold, based on calculation, that would tip the ram count away from the effective application of a nuke. I can't remember the number but it was well known in Tribal Wars, a bit harder to say on this version with so many more variables.

 

[DeletedUser1594]

I would say anything beyond 1000-1200 rams in a wall breaker is certainly wasting your offensive potential. I would even put the bountiful harvest towards increasing the fighting strength of a single nuke. I MAY consider a test of 2000 rams in a super nuke with the Paladin weapon, but I would expect to see better results with 1000 rams with weapon and the rest into fighting ability.

There is indeed a threshold, based on calculation, that would tip the ram count away from the effective application of a nuke. I can't remember the number but it was well known in Tribal Wars, a bit harder to say on this version with so many more variables.

This is more along the lines of what I was asking. I reall want to get the wall to 0 as quick as possible then hit with 100 nukes, so the troop kills for me wouldnt be important until the wall is down. You think based on that I would be better off with 1000-1200 rams instead?

 

[DeletedUser486]

If you are talking about damage to a stack, in terms of removing a player's entire attempt to defend and open up the way for easier conquers beyond that village then, with how the game is structured, sabotage would be much more efficient.
From that description it sounds like the goal is the kill, more than the conquer, in which case you are aiming to force a bottleneck and the bigger the stack the less your rams are really going to do. In this scenario, you would forget rams entirely, focus on removing target village walls and province faith from the defender and then go all berserker on the guy.
If you are talking about overcoming your basic front line defenders, then 1000-1200 rams and the rest berserkers has shown to be pretty deadly on my world.

 

[DeletedUser1594]

My goal there is to take out those 160k+ troops. Sabotage is not an option, Offensive nukes is not an issue for me either. I have 200+ available. I think sending large ram nuked to drop the wall followed by ram-less nukes I should be able to take it all out

 

[DeletedUser486]

I am certainly interested to hear the results. A feat to be seen for certain.

 

[DeletedUser2504]

Ignoring the fact that it is stupid to attack a village that has been stacked with 20 defensive villages...

In my opinion, trebs need to have their stats reduced significantly. Right now they offer defensive stats that are just over 2/3rds of a heavy cavalry unit (per unit population). This is too much on top of the fact that they already serve such a strong defensive purpose. Why do rams have a miserable combat strength, whereas trebs such high defensive strength? They are utility units and should not double as strong defensive units.

 

[DeletedUser2635]

This is true but I have done some and I'm planning to conduct more tests. I can already tell you roughly that;
- 710 rams are needed to drop the wall bonus from 20 to 0. In a single battle, wall bonus never drops more than the wall level itself. Luck has an effect. Wall bonus comes down in a linear pattern meaning that 355 rams would bring wall bonus from 20 to 10 (typically bringing defender's modifier from 200% to 150%).
- 230 rams are needed to drop the wall level from 20 to 0. Luck and defending units have an effect. The pattern is exponential so that higher levels are harder to lower. 115 rams would drop the wall level roughly from 20 to 13.

The rams need an escort of roughly 1300 provisions in order to hit at full power. This means that 1300 provisions worth of escorting troops need to live through the battle. Defense troops are not good for escort because their attack power is so low that many will die already at the wall's base defense without any defending troops at the target.

Testing this is complicated but if I can come up with any more definitive information, will post it later.

As for the original question on countering trebuchet - it can only be done effectively with a number of full nukes without rams in them provided that there are about 1000+ trebuchet in the stack. The bigger the stack the harder it will be to go through obviously - although a big stack means that many other villages will be unprotected at that moment.

No offense meant but this post is very incorrect: First of all, it depends how many rams die/survive, if all survive they attack twice, I will give an example: I attack with 200 rams they bring wall down to lvl 16, 50 rams survive they attack again and bring wall down to lvl 15, the attack modifier will be 180% and not 175% because the wall was brought down to lvl 16 in the first try. Basically, even 250 rams can bring the wall down to lvl 0 from 20 if all of them survive. You say 355 Rams bring wall down from lvl 20 to lvl 10, while 230 Rams are needed to bring wall from 20 to 0, which doesn't make any sense. Also it is untrue that the way the wall bonus comes down is linear: 50 Rams can bring wall level down to 0 while the same amount of rams has no chance to bring the wall from 20 to 10. 1300 escorting troops is untrue as well, if it were true you could just send (425 LC with 1000 rams and have them hit at full power, it would also mean that 300 rams with 1300 axes escort would do the same damage as lets say 300 rams and 10k axes 1k zerks so on).
I don't even know why somebody would ask this question to be honest (no disrespect towards zGrim), but why would anyone, with at least a bit of experience try to kill such a stack?