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I take responsibility ... under different circumstances I may have lead wow too closer challenge ... I wasn't Sole Leader ... I mean I was one of many 'co leaders' ... once the war was looking rather unsalvagable, I was then given sole leadership ... evidently didn't have a chance ... I did what I could with what I had left ... you see the pattern ?? you say you are responsible for your failure but everything you write after that is "screaming" : it's not my fault , i did nothing wrong , it wasn't my decision to make ... i feel like i'm watching a stand-up comedy tbh
Btw you know what's really sad about your last posts here ? you are accusing others of lacking good sport because they judge you "harshly" as a leader when you couldn't even congrats -X- on their win ... instead you tried in your first post to discredit their win with your "rumors"


Hang on a sec syphax I will congratulate x members for win as I said a while ago I would which I will stick too.... when the official declaration is made... and I've said previously many x members are experienced great player's . I've tried too be reasonable as much as can... yeah I've made mistakes but I've been as honest I can be
 

DeletedUser5110

Guest
Can I summarize your blame fight for you guys?
Thatsmyspot: I wasn't in control and I admit I made several errors
All other commentators: Thatsmyspot is totally incompetent as a leader

I suspect that none of you will change your mind, therefore you are not engaging in a persuasive, rather, you're just bitching at each other. I recommend you save your breath and stop that discussion topic or figure out a way to make it constructive.

I think a more interesting subject is the recent point game made by -X- by recruiting five new members. This is despite previous announcements that no new members would be accepted. They even accepted Brother of Metal and Ghoost who I'm pretty sure gained much of their stature by aggressive barr munching.
 
Thank you for your interjection .... I admit my failures on this realm I made errors indeed... but it does seem I'm taking alot of criticism and overall responsibility for both tribes downfall sometimes... appreciate your words buddy... I do wanna move on also, alas the world is in its final stagesnow anyhow
 
Who said anything about being constructive ?? it was more like a side argument than something productive ... this world is dead , we have less to talk about each week ... even this thread had no update in the last week ... everyone is just waiting for the % so they can move on ... -X- are almost 76% atm so this shouldn't take long ... i thought the "blame fight" was interesting and kinda funny ... you think talking about -X- recruiting 2 of your neighbors ,who you hate apparently, is more "interesting" and "constructive" ... i don't think it's significant at this stage and i still prefer to "waste my breath" arguing with thatsmyspot ... but that's just my opinion ... now regarding that interesting subject i have to say first that recruiting policy is above my rank , i'm just a member , so i will only state my personal opinion ... i don't think recruitment should be definitely closed at any stage ... it should always depend on the tribe actives/inactives ... you will have to look for new blood if there is an increase on inactives/dead weight and to replace your internals ... -X- like any dominating tribe at this late stage clearly have those and they needs to be replaced ... nothing new or shocking here about them recruiting 4 people outside top50 ...
 
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DeletedUser2369

Guest
Pain monkey your summary is well off. Beside the fact that I never actually said thatsmyspot specifically was bad, neither did the others, what was said was WOW and darkness leadership was bad, thatsmyspot then claimed responsibility for both them proceeded to complain that we were attacking him personally, made excuses, justifications and caveats. If the arguement went the way you claim, thatsmyspot would have stopped talking long ago. It seems you have something against -x- and have decided to put a spin on the convo to bash x.
Furthermore do you think the 66 villages those two players brought in are gonna make any real difference this world? Maybe you think MAG would have won if we didn't make those recruits? I mean you say talking about them is more interesting than discussing how the world reached this point and arguing over who is to blame, you must think they are really important players. I think I need to take another look at the stats, last i saw the world was won and we were just slogging to innogames' ridiculous benchmark to prove to them it's been done, heck even 300 villages wouldn't have changed that.
 

DeletedUser2616

Guest
didn't even know he was the leader. I was talking about whoever (literally who?) was leading at the time that players switched to X. people having the gall to call them traitors when they chose not to follow a crap leader is the point i was making. But if you wanna gain some victim points from a statement like that then all power to you i guess.
 

DeletedUser2369

Guest
@gutsman as I understand it, thatsmysport was A leader at that time, one of about 10 leaders who all had to unanimously agree on every minor decision. That is his excuse for why its not his fault (but the fault does belong to all the leaders as they let it get that way, and ive had 2 others use the same excuse in-game), and if even the leaders want to distance themselves from responsibility at that time, is it any wonder players wanted out?
The exact numbers of leaders werent publicly shown, so maybe the number wasnt nearly that high and they were just using it as an excuse, or maybe it was far higher. Apparantly every time they merged tribes, the leaders of the merging tribe were added to the council, WOW reached the highest member count in the world, every other week it seems like they merged again (I called them MRT in the first weeks of the world, I havent seen anything yet to disprove that).
This has not come from thatsmyspot, but parlay and suzystar (who had the founders badge) gave me this excuse. suzystar was bragging that she held against a couple nukes while all her tribemates around her went down in flames, when i pointed out that that probably meant she was saving her troops for herself and not helping her tribemates she went ape and made every accusation and excuse that thatsmyspot has given. She then quit the tribe, created her own with descriptor text saying something along the lines of "go play only for yourselves you idiots" (which of course is exactly what she was doing by creating her own tribe and not taking any tribemates with her) and ultimately died days later. Parlay messaged me to justify her and the fact that she wasnt in charge, that it was a council, and it was hard to get reponses from everybody fast enough.
I was in OTS just prior to those defections, who were allied with WOW. in fact I had WOW on 2 sides and in province, and MAG on the other 3, my tribemates were a couple provinces away at the closest. Every time i asked for help against our common enemy, it took them at least a day to respond, if they helped me, it was always after the danger had passed. ONly one attack was actually held off by their support. One of their members moved into the enemy province to distract as much as anything, I watched him ask and beg for weeks for aid, and that aid only came from two players and only when he had the enemy in that province pushed back already (thatsmyspot says he supplied some support as well, but thats not what was needed when attacking through one of only two avenues to the enemy in the area), They ignored the spy reports which said a village would take just over 1 nuke to clear, sent one nuke and some nobles, lost them, then sat back to lick their wounds. I jumped in to show them the damage theyd done (almost all the defense in prov was already dead from that one nuke) me and the one player already there took 4 villages in a day, the defender quit, and then we had 6 or 7 WOW members claiming the dead villages.
After that province was taken, this player practically begged his tribemates to move into the next province, the OTS players were already fighting in them so it shouldnt be hard for the largest tribe to do jump in, and he recieved silence. One player jumped in with almost no communication, and he too was left to die out there.
When MAG attacked WOW leaders in another neighbouring provinces (just after id moved to -X-), and as far as im aware it was a single nuke with a couple fakes, the kind id been dealing with on my own for weeks, if not months, a tribe mail was sent asking the entire tribe to stack the entire province which had 20-30 villages in it. My friend felt that he was not valued, if recieving one nuke was all it took them to get tribal help, but taking an enemy province was not enough to get even one player to fight with him. Not to mention that I would respond to his messages immediately, while he also had to wait days for responses from his tribe, I and my tribemates (from OTS, though most of these moved to -X- as well) were sending spies and random nukes and fakes and giving advice on his fight, while WOW ignored him. As he tells it, he was told he wasnt allowed to attack this one province he had around him that was red, the only alternative i can think of was barb-munching.
Small wonder many wow members werent loyal to a tribe like that. And I have other stories that paint a similar picture as well.
 

DeletedUser5131

Guest
Can I summarize your blame fight for you guys?
Thatsmyspot: I wasn't in control and I admit I made several errors
All other commentators: Thatsmyspot is totally incompetent as a leader

I suspect that none of you will change your mind, therefore you are not engaging in a persuasive, rather, you're just bitching at each other. I recommend you save your breath and stop that discussion topic or figure out a way to make it constructive.

I think a more interesting subject is the recent point game made by -X- by recruiting five new members. This is despite previous announcements that no new members would be accepted. They even accepted Brother of Metal and Ghoost who I'm pretty sure gained much of their stature by aggressive barr munching.
May as well share the crowns :3
 

DeletedUser5110

Guest
MY note about the discussion was merely because it was getting repetitive and leading to no evolution of opinions. I recall some very long argument with Soprano and seemingly everyone else that went on forever and also was tedious. That didn't need to be repeated. I wasnt defending thatsmyspot. He admitted to errors, others documented them and those of tribal leadership. The conclusion seems pretty obvious. Hence the wisdom of ending the discussion.
Ghoost and metal aren't my enemies. They used to be tribemates. I do object to barb munching but so do most players. In this case they were able to parlay that activity into membership in the winning tribe.
What I do think is interesting is that a couple weeks ago there was a strong denial on this thread that any further recruiting would take place. Since then -X- has maxed out its 80 player limit. Clearly there's been a reevaluation of their ability to win by taking villages. Given the somewhat slow pace of reaching 80% this seems reasonable and is the tactic I had predicted a couple weeks ago.
I think a discusssion of why the progress is slow would be interesting.

Ghrin, I have nothing against -X-. They pulled off a pretty amazing leap in the rankings while being at war with two large tribes. Seems impressive to me. Wait, I do have a complaint about them. The frequent name changes were just annoying. I suggest Inno charge crowns to change a tribes name.
 

DeletedUser2369

Guest
yes, and it seems you blamed everyone but thatsmyspot for the "repetitve" part, and he responds to repeat his complaints of being singled out (which he hadnt been), triggered me a little bit.
When thatsmyspot got full control (acutally a bit before i think) he went nuts insulting everyone in several threads in the forum, from the "traitors" to the "arrogant" -X- members, and about 3 pages of comments was removed from this thread about that time - in his defense the response from -X- wasnt exactly pretty and it just blew out of proportion.
Even then he was claiming things were being said that I could not find, just as he has done here ("retarded" comment) that made the -X- side look even worse than it was (and that was pretty bad too. I reported the whole lot involved in that discussion to get the vileness removed from this thread).
He was also PMing the "traitors" with some rather vile stuff, as I was coop for one of these "traitors" I saw it and threatened to report him. I thought at the time we hashed everything out and were going to be more respectful going forward, and to his credit, he is pretty respectful now, but that history does mean that many in -x- will react pretty poorly to anything from him that heads that direction, and I personally have little patience with him when he make excuses and blames others for his situation - You say he has admitted to mistakes, actually he hasnt, he claims it wasnt his decision at the time for the one mistake he brought up, and blames the rest of the council for the rest, but if fate smiled on him he may have provided a challenge. Fate doesnt effect this game as much as he seems to think.
Be careful with statements like "reevaluation of their ability to win by taking villages", im sure you didnt mean it to come across the way it did, but that is just asking for an outcry from a tribe that has earned their position, and are understandably proud of it. My initial reaction was to denounce it, and many others from the tribe that are in the forums are more like deliberate trolls, and that sort of player would make a much bigger deal.
As for the "slow pace of reaching 80%" I must disagree, in fact this has been the fastest growth in end game that I have been around to watch, My first world we did 2-3% per week, the last world I played to the end in the losing side was lucky to get 1% per week. to be doing 4-5% a week now is pretty quick compared to those (and we were doing that before the recruitment). Only way to be doing it faster is by crowning tribe levels to merge.
80 members max is also quite low, most worlds the winning tribe is bigger, or at least got bigger at one point or another in the world, so again, 5 players, worth 1% of the top 10 villages between them, is really not worth mentioning, if it was bigger players (none of those 5 were in the top 50) then its worth mentioning, and worth saying that its a strategy of reaching the end faster, 1% saves us a day, 2 at the most. Your comments I would only see as valid if the recruitments increased by 3-5% minimum.
As for the name changes, I think juckfhin saw it as a meme. Sometimes it was in response to other tribes changing names, but most of the time it was just for fun. If you found it annoying as a player, think how frustrating it was to be doing stats updates each week! Im just glad that the tribe tag was consistent, otherwise i probably would have just stopped doing the stats, despite the dozens of players messaging me ingame asking me to keep doing it every time i got fed up with the trolls and ignorant comments attacking me on a weekly basis.
 
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yes, and it seems you blamed everyone but thatsmyspot for the "repetitve" part, and he responds to repeat his complaints of being singled out (which he hadnt been), triggered me a little bit.
When thatsmyspot got full control (acutally a bit before i think) he went nuts insulting everyone in several threads in the forum, from the "traitors" to the "arrogant" -X- members, and about 3 pages of comments was removed from this thread about that time - in his defense the response from -X- wasnt exactly pretty and it just blew out of proportion.
Even then he was claiming things were being said that I could not find, just as he has done here ("retarded" comment) that made the -X- side look even worse than it was (and that was pretty bad too. I reported the whole lot involved in that discussion to get the vileness removed from this thread).
He was also PMing the "traitors" with some rather vile stuff, as I was coop for one of these "traitors" I saw it and threatened to report him. I thought at the time we hashed everything out and were going to be more respectful going forward, and to his credit, he is pretty respectful now, but that history does mean that many in -x- will react pretty poorly to anything from him that heads that direction, and I personally have little patience with him when he make excuses and blames others for his situation - You say he has admitted to mistakes, actually he hasnt, he claims it wasnt his decision at the time for the one mistake he brought up, and blames the rest of the council for the rest, but if fate smiled on him he may have provided a challenge. Fate doesnt effect this game as much as he seems to think.
Be careful with statements like "reevaluation of their ability to win by taking villages", im sure you didnt mean it to come across the way it did, but that is just asking for an outcry from a tribe that has earned their position, and are understandably proud of it. My initial reaction was to denounce it, and many others from the tribe that are in the forums are more like deliberate trolls, and that sort of player would make a much bigger deal.
As for the "slow pace of reaching 80%" I must disagree, in fact this has been the fastest growth in end game that I have been around to watch, My first world we did 2-3% per week, the last world I played to the end in the losing side was lucky to get 1% per week. to be doing 4-5% a week now is pretty quick compared to those (and we were doing that before the recruitment). Only way to be doing it faster is by crowning tribe levels to merge.
80 members max is also quite low, most worlds the winning tribe is bigger, or at least got bigger at one point or another in the world, so again, 5 players, worth 1% of the top 10 villages between them, is really not worth mentioning, if it was bigger players (none of those 5 were in the top 50) then its worth mentioning, and worth saying that its a strategy of reaching the end faster, 1% saves us a day, 2 at the most. Your comments I would only see as valid if the recruitments increased by 3-5% minimum.
As for the name changes, I think juckfhin saw it as a meme. Sometimes it was in response to other tribes changing names, but most of the time it was just for fun. If you found it annoying as a player, think how frustrating it was to be doing stats updates each week! Im just glad that the tribe tag was consistent, otherwise i probably would have just stopped doing the stats, despite the dozens of players messaging me ingame asking me to keep doing it every time i got fed up with the trolls and ignorant comments attacking me on a weekly basis.


Right you know what Ghrin let's end this now like painmonkey is quite rightly saying it's becoming repetitive and what's had too be said has already been said.... and you know why I went 'nuts' .... Juckfhin being an absolute troll caused that..... not happy that I lost my cool but if you're getting called a mental retard everyday eventually you're just gonna say 'oh fuck you mate' .... (referring too babel tooth is out of order really! We resolved that it doesn't need digging up thank you)
 

DeletedUser2369

Guest
yet again, everyone elses fault, and more baseless claim of repetitive insults that did not occur, at least not publicly where I could see it. Im happy to stop, but your not coming into my stats thread, claiming generic accusations were directed at you, then complaining that your being singled out and its everyone elses fault. I have never once seen the word "retard" attributed to a player by any player other than you, even in those 3 pages of deleted posts. please stop saying we are calling you that, if it happens report it, it is not acceptable. People can attack your gameplay, but not you personally - thats in the rules.
As far as this thread is concerned, the on-topic part of the conversation amounts to this (with a little expansion):
WOW and Darkness screwed up for many reasons. -X- has a couple inactives, some of whom may or may not have been banned, I dont have confirmation, and we do not get that. However, even if did happen, the cheating was not enough for anyone in WOW or darkness to claim that -X- only won because of it, or even that they wouldnt have done as well as they did without it.
Ultimately in my opinion the reason for WOW and Darkness getting so soundly trounced is that the leadership in those tribes were not up to par.
Darkness went down too fast for me to know too much about exactly where the leaders screwed up, but they failed to prepare their tribe for a war that they started (and started a couple days earlier than they had told their tribe because the declaration date got leaked to -X-), thats the only explanation for them losing half their points in 48 hours, before the survivors deserted/refugeed into WOW (the leaders stayed active in Darkness, so this wasnt a merge as we had thought. Interesting as Darkness was crying refugee on a couple -X- members that they hadnt really hurt before joining, and WOW were raging over deserters from their tribe to -X- prior to this)
As for WOW, the leaders screwed up too many places to mention, though i have mentioned many of them already. I think the fact that they kept adding council members may have been at the root of it all. Players did not trust a leadership that effectively tied their own hands behind their backs and were unable to actually lead, which explains the defections. They couldnt make any real decisions to ensure the tribe got trained and prepared, and probably unable to start any wars with tribes that they needed to declare on. They couldnt organise the tribe to be ready for support or to work together.Once the war started they joined the losing side, however I think this was the right move, everyone is playing to win, unfortunately that was too little too late, then they got salty and couldnt see past their salt to actually organise and fight effectively, instead they focused on making sure everyone knew who defected from them, and that they werent happy, and made bad strategic decisions because of this emotionalness.

If you disagree with me, tell me what you think is the correct analysis of the world and why WOW and Darkness got trounced, and why -X- got so high so fast (or tell me they didnt if you think that). Or maybe discuss other tribes, regular names in the top 10 over the months include: NOH/MAG, OTS, tco, TSO, POT, RoA, gum, maybe a few others iv forgotten
Do not claim that im being unfair. Do not say im calling you names. No player in specific has been included in this analysis, so nobody has to shift blame off themselves. TBH I dont think any single player has had enough of an effect on this world to be dicussed too much at this level except in stories lol, even leadership is a group effort (if its not then its almost always a death sentence for the tribe... POT i think is an example of that from this world, for those that remember them)
 

DeletedUser5131

Guest
MY note about the discussion was merely because it was getting repetitive and leading to no evolution of opinions. I recall some very long argument with Soprano and seemingly everyone else that went on forever and also was tedious. That didn't need to be repeated. I wasnt defending thatsmyspot. He admitted to errors, others documented them and those of tribal leadership. The conclusion seems pretty obvious. Hence the wisdom of ending the discussion.
Ghoost and metal aren't my enemies. They used to be tribemates. I do object to barb munching but so do most players. In this case they were able to parlay that activity into membership in the winning tribe.
What I do think is interesting is that a couple weeks ago there was a strong denial on this thread that any further recruiting would take place. Since then -X- has maxed out its 80 player limit. Clearly there's been a reevaluation of their ability to win by taking villages. Given the somewhat slow pace of reaching 80% this seems reasonable and is the tactic I had predicted a couple weeks ago.
I think a discusssion of why the progress is slow would be interesting.

Ghrin, I have nothing against -X-. They pulled off a pretty amazing leap in the rankings while being at war with two large tribes. Seems impressive to me. Wait, I do have a complaint about them. The frequent name changes were just annoying. I suggest Inno charge crowns to change a tribes name.
Slow, the world is so boring, when you can roll any player without timing or tactics. Sheer size alone allows me to do so, but makes bothering to do that quite a banal task.
 
Ghrin read again what I stated.... I never said you insulted me ... I said this is getting repetitive... which it is .... I admitted I went 'nuts but it was down too my arguments with juckfhin and co.... not you.... I was angry at myself for looking my cool on afew occasions.... the person you refer too in you're prior thread... Babel... situation has been sorted and was apologised for it doesn't need bringing back up here.... wow/darkness lost because of multiple things... diplo which went wrong... too many leaders who couldn't agree... support each other... daily almost defections... war with mag on going was a big mistake before war with x declared ... sometimes leaders went in active and an action needed all leaders too agree... stiffled growth due lack of expansion options... and some other reasons.... now pls let's move on .... we really are rehashing old ground
 
The word repetitive is getting repetitive and it start getting on my nerves ... it's not like there is a lot to talk about ... there is barely anything new worth mentioning so we keep talking about old stuffs + discussion what happened to this world top tribes and why is never repetitive or pointless ... at least that's how i see it
Here is something "new"
053019.gif

all credit goes to @GRhin and his weekly maps ...
 

DeletedUser2369

Guest
more excuses thatsmyspot. I didnt say you accused me this last time, i said you accused "everyone else", which you did. The babel stuff was history for a player not understanding where teh salt came from, and so was relevant. I mentioned there that it was dealt with at the time. Im ready to move on, but you have to stop repeating the arguement you say you want to stop.

@SYPHAX thanks for that gif, ive been procrastinating doing it for weeks cos i thought the zooms and position of the map was so different, i expected it to be a lot of work. I started trying to make a consistent screenshot size/location at the end (based off kingdom borders, which arent a straight line, but it was close to consistent). If your keen to modify it, id love for little notes in the bottom left corner saying "-D- declares war on -X-" "OTS loses top members" "SIN merges into WOW" that sort of thing. no pressure, its pretty clear in the map anyways.
 
@SYPHAX thanks for that gif, ive been procrastinating doing it for weeks cos i thought the zooms and position of the map was so different, i expected it to be a lot of work. I started trying to make a consistent screenshot size/location at the end (based off kingdom borders, which arent a straight line, but it was close to consistent). If your keen to modify it, id love for little notes in the bottom left corner saying "-D- declares war on -X-" "OTS loses top members" "SIN merges into WOW" that sort of thing. no pressure, its pretty clear in the map anyways.
Yeah , unlike tw2tools you can't get the exact same zoom/position for the map/captions with tribalwars2map ... you did a great job keeping them somehow consistent ... except the 3 first maps , all your maps can easily be made into one gif without looking off ...
053119.gif
It's hard to write everything important because sometimes there is a lot happening in one week ...
 
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DeletedUser2616

Guest
Imagine letting jhin get under your skin, lmao. It's easy enough to ignore a player, or you dish it right back.

if it makes you feel any better @Thatsmyspot he bragged on en31 that he had a plan to deal with every player in my tribe then lost to the very first person he went against (Always blue, the absolute madman).

@GRhin so they had a large council? seems like a common downfall of MRTs, too many voices of "equal" value serves nothing except to slow things down. also i guess that means my insults are directed at a collective rather than any individual.
 
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DeletedUser2369

Guest
yep, at least thats the excuse the 3 council members that I know of have given me (thatsmyspot, parlay, and suzystar), id heard rumours of a fourth, but only the three council members informed me that there were more than that, I think the problem here was that 1. nobody could make snap decisions - i.e. make a decision when the rest of the council were dragging their heels in responding (the founder should have ultimate authority IMO) 2. everyone was required to give input and 3. if someone was inactive, it sounds like everyone had to wait untill they were active again to make the decision. Fix any one of those 3 problems and most of the excuses resulting from the large council starts to melt away, fix all 3 and all excuses are gone.
Ill admit Iv only been in about 10 tribes in tw2 (though ive watched the other tribes around in each world), and every leadership structure was slightly different based on how the world developed. but iv seen only one council-run tribe be successfull, that council worked pretty well together, and had set specific areas of responsibility for each council member so they could make snap decisions in their area, WOW did not have this it seems.
as for the direction of the insults, both of us always said "leaders" not "leader" so directed the insults at the collective rather than any individual anyways.
 
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