Defense

[DeletedUser]

Does anyone else think that defense is severely underpowered? Today I had an attack on me and I will give numbers to represent what happened.

My Defense: 803 spears, 336 swordsman, 1365 axeman, 331 archers, 809 cavalry, 478 mounted archers and a paladin that was giving 30% defense and 20% attack to my spearmen. I also had a level 10 wall and 100% faith.

Attackers Offense: 63 axeman, 384 archers, 453 cavalry, 481 mounted archers, 42 rams, 44 catapults , 31 berserkers and a paladin.

Now given these numbers my army was completely destroyed and ALL my units died so if someone can explain to me how on earth I lose this battle with such heavy casualties it would be greatly appreciated in what I am doing wrong. I understand that offensive units don't do as well in defense but they still should of helped in contributing to the defense.

As for the other guy he lost 57 axeman, 235 archers, 237 cavalry, 294 mounted archers, all siege weapons, 28 berserkers and his paladin.

 

[DeletedUser486]

I was wondering what effect berserkers would have in the game, they fight double the strength against a larger army, and this dude had 31. Looking at the wiki they require the same farm space as Heavy cav, but with twice the offensive strength 300 (which I would assume was doubled here). His cavalry would have also contributed to wrecking you. I don't know nearly enough to be able to see a balance issue but it for sure caught you hard.



On the other hand, he only kept a handful of troops himself, poor luck on his part might have even won you that battle (-25%)

 

[DeletedUser]

There is a German battle simulator that my tribe found and although it is not completely accurate it showed roughly the kind of numbers that I needed to hold that attack.

According to this simulator i needed 1000 spearman, 1000 archers, 1000 swordsman and at least 250 cavalry just to defeat his army with almost all of my troops dying as well... If i need over 3300 defensive units with a wall bonus that at that time gave 50% extra defense against nearly 1500 offensive units then there is something not proportionate with the balance of defense and offense.

Essentially I needed NEARLY 5000 units worth of defensive troops (factoring in the wall multiplier of 1.5) just to BARELY hold 1500 units off. That to me should say that defense and offense should really be looked at... I should not need over 3x the amount of troops to hold a defensive fight.

 

[DeletedUser]

you were overextended on offense, someone caught you at home and fucked you

no surprise there

you had 1500 provisions in def units and almost 7k in offensive units. thats about 150k def value with pala bonus if i only add up the max def bonus of each unit

he had 4289 provisions in offensive units + archers + bersi that add up to ~150k att+bersi without any pala bonus

seeing as: "The Ram is used for tearing down the enemy Wall. This is done twice during a battle. The first ram attack will be executed before the battle starts and lowers the defense bonus of the defender if successful. The second attack is done after the battle with the surviving rams"
the result, a tight victory is completly reasonable.

i adapted a combat sim from tw1 with the new unit stats for personal & tribe use and it gives almost the same result without factoring in luck

number of units doesn't matter, its paper, rock, shotgun if you had 7k provisions in defensive units, you would have lost closer to 2,5k provisions worth and wiped him out

 

[DeletedUser]

803 spears v. 453 cavalry (47k def v. 59k off) (with 30% bonus)
336 swords v. 63 axes, 42 rams, 44 cats and 31 bers (18,5k def v. 13,5k off)
331 archers v. 384 archers and 481 marchers (20k def v. 82k off)

So basically, you didn't have enough archers and enemy archers shot the rest of your army down from the distance, so to speek. The wall bonus is small, he had rams, so you wall was lowered before the attack. You offensive units didn't make much difference, even though tho there is lot of em. I see nothing wrong, if you were spied before the attack, you enemy knew you lacked archers in your defense and used it.

 

[DeletedUser]

As far as I know there was no report of a spy against the village, the guy just blindly sent all his units at me. Thanks for explaining the numbers. So am I too assume that the only numbers that I should care about when on the defense is my defensive numbers against their offensive numbers?

Also can you explain why offensive units do not do much in the way of defense?

 

[DeletedUser]

offensive units have (for their res cost and recruit time) abysmal defensive stats, def units have bad attack stats. you can check the stats if you click the button on the unit.

for example

l cav:
att: 130
inf def: 30
cav def: 40

 

[DeletedUser]

So when I'm attacking I need to worry about my offensive total against his defensive total and when I'm defending I need to worry about my defensive total against their offensive total?

 

[DeletedUser486]

Pretty much why I was surprised you let your offense take the hit. You would have faired better taking shots at trying to backtime him.

 

[DeletedUser]

Well I'm still learning, just never thought that the offense would do so terrible at helping to protect a village.

 

[DeletedUser]

If the calculation is the same as in TW1 then it goes like this:

You get the ratio of enemy army's strength by type, for example infanty:cavalry:archers = 2:1:3

You defensive units are split in this ratio, so 2/6 of all your units go fight against infanty, 1/6 against cavalry and 3/6 against archers. The defender's army is NOT howerver split by type, so it's 2/6 spears, 2/6 swords, 2/6 archers and so on.

All three mini-battles are calculated by simply OFF DEF, the loser loses his mini-army and the winner loses a portion (not linear, it's used to be a square of difference or something like that). If it happens so that the attacker loses one mini battle and defender two, the remaining armies undergo the same process - splitting by types for attacker, splitting by ratio by defender, new mini battles - until one side loses his last unit (mathematically, it should be three rounds top, but more likely it's two rounds).

So in your case, to make it into more depth, enemy's ratio is about 59:13:82, so over half of your units is send against archers in the first wave. That's deadly and even if you win the other two mini-battles, the archers will win the second round quite easily.

As simulators from TW1 work here after changing stat values of units, the system must be same or very similar, so it's tested and proven balanced. It's all just MATHS

 

[DeletedUser]

You defensive units are split in this ratio, so 2/6 of all your units go fight against infanty, 1/6 against cavalry and 3/6 against archers. The defender's army is NOT howerver split by type, so it's 2/6 spears, 2/6 swords, 2/6 archers and so on.

I'm assuming you meant to say offensive units are not split and not defender's army for the 2nd part of this? Otherwise you're saying that defense is split in one sentence and then defense is not split in another.

 

[DeletedUser]

No, actually...

I'm saying: attacker's army is split in types, defender's army is split by attacker's army ratios but not split according to their type, like that it's not trying in any way to put spears against cavalry and swords against infantry.